What causes Wegeners?

[mishb]

Our footballers use the hyperbaric oxygen chamber for sporting injuries.
They say it helps to heal torn hamstrings, help to speed recovery for sprains and strains, swollen ankles, bruising etc.
They can get back on to the field in half the normal recovery time.

[MCC]

As I've said before I find it madness that doctors are not generally interested in the reasons why.

My money's on the toxins, which is why I now try to cut down chemicals in my life - where I can - simple things like deodrants, shampoo etc. I also eat 60% raw most days.

[Sangye]

I agree with you, MCC.

[drz]

I read a lot of info that blame our genetically modified food as one of the culprits for many of our health problems. Most industrialized countries don't seem to allow it but it predominates our food supply in USA and Canada. Why are many countries so opposed to it if it is supposedly so good? I think part of the great increase for wanting organic foods is to avoid the GMO stuff and all the pesticides used on our food. I try buy local or organic when I can even though it often costs more for imported organic stuff.

[Dryhill]

I read a lot of info that blame our genetically modified food as one of the culprits for many of our health problems. Most industrialized countries don't seem to allow it but it predominates our food supply in USA and Canada. Why are many countries so opposed to it if it is supposedly so good? I think part of the great increase for wanting organic foods is to avoid the GMO stuff and all the pesticides used on our food. I try buy local or organic when I can even though it often costs more for imported organic stuff.

Basically it is banned here in the UK and Europe (some small scale test crops are allowed to be grown but not to reach the food chain) because we the people objected so strongly governments had no option but to do as we said, after all they are only our representatives not our masters. Perhaps American and Canadian we the people are not so vocal or of course perhaps the government is your Master?

In the UK political parties are limited to how much they can advertise themselves before an election and there are attempts being made to limit how much business and unions can fund the parties

Jim

[Al]

As I've said before I find it madness that doctors are not generally interested in the reasons why.

My money's on the toxins, which is why I now try to cut down chemicals in my life - where I can - simple things like deodrants, shampoo etc. I also eat 60% raw most days.

I know there are many who blame toxins. Indeed, I go along with this point--at least for flares. And.I fully believe that many environmental factors wreak havoc with the immune system, leading, indirectly, to an increased risk of all kinds of problems. However, I do not believe that toxins directly "cause" WG in the initial stages. Here is my reasoning. While many toxins are chemically complex and can elicit an immune reasponse, they do not, by themselves, reproduce in the body. (Many bacteria, however, produce their own exceedingly nasty toxins.) Thus, it it is unlikely for the immune system to learn a new, very complicated response from their presence. On the other hand, immune systems are very good at coming up with novel responses to rapidly reproducing life- or quasi-life forms: Bacteria, viruses, and fungi. The immune processes involved with WG do not come standard with the "make-a-human" kit; they must be specifically learned. However, once learned, they can easily be employed to deal with any perceived threat, even if that threat is incorrectly identified.

I'm not sure exactly what you meant by "raw" foods. Uncooked, perhaps? Good idea--probably, though I recommend caution: Raw foods can be fertile ground for various microbes. Not all microbes are "bad", but most are capable of inciting the immune system. And environmental chemicals are often found on such foods; these are usually defused by cooking. So be diligent!

I read a lot of info that blame our genetically modified food as one of the culprits for many of our health problems. Most industrialized countries don't seem to allow it but it predominates our food supply in USA and Canada. Why are many countries so opposed to it if it is supposedly so good? I think part of the great increase for wanting organic foods is to avoid the GMO stuff and all the pesticides used on our food. I try buy local or organic when I can even though it often costs more for imported organic stuff.

I also go "organic" so far as possible. But three notes of caution: First, it is not easy to know how reputable the source is, and two, in any case, "organic" has too many definitions to be a complete comfort to me. Three, what you can usually (but not always) trust is that organic foods are produced without manufactured chemical fertilizers, pesticides, and such. However, they do allow for natural fertilizers, like manure. Manure is, or course, both natural and organic, and yet the designation does not preclude toxicity. (Remember the recent European epidemic of E. coli O104:H4? The culprit was from organic sprouts from a presumed reputable producer.) Bacteria found in manure of many farm animals can be nasty to humans. Again, the point is to be alert--and careful!

Al

[Al]

....In the UK political parties are limited to how much they can advertise themselves before an election and there are attempts being made to limit how much business and unions can fund the parties

Yeah. Now I need to shut up.

Al

[me2]

Which came first , the sicken or the Weg?

I'm on board for the toxic theory because I basically bathed in the stuff as a young man for three years before getting ill. It was legal back then to do that to young people in factories. I was exposed to industrial solvents. I like the theory that it caused MY weg because my immune system had not evolved over thousands of years to deal with these chemicals.
That being said , it seems most likely that there are many 'causes' of weg. My scientist doc votes for virus. He has been right a lot in the thirty plus years I've known him. The question is , why do some people exposed to the 'cause' get weg and the others don't.

It is always amazing to me to see the number of people smoking. It takes a very large number of smokers and a very large epidemiological study, over many years, to connect smoking to heart attack, cancer , emphazema (sp?) etc. One cause, many illnesses.

Remember how long and hard the fight was to get the connection accepted even after gazillions of dollars spent on studies that proved the connection. So what chance do we have with our small numbers and very little study? I dunno, I'm hoping to be surprised.

Two different naturopaths told me to stop chemo way back when even knowing my diagnosis. I did and almost died. I guess Hallmark doesn't have a card for doing that to someone because I never heard from them again. One kept sending me a final bill that I used to look at laying on the couch because I could no longer walk- literally. My now 215 lb frame was reduced to 122.

There was no internet back then, I had no idea what I was dealing with. My doc back then didn't explain it to me ... because he had to get on to the next patient. When I quit seeing him and quit taking Cytoxin I didn't hear from him either. Did I stop treatment, was I dead? He didn't care.

My regular doc now may not spend a lot time with me but on the other hand his treatments have kept me alive. With wg I score allopaths '1', naturopaths '0'.

That was many years ago. Nowadays I do what y'all are talking about. Regular doc for the disease, natural as possible for my health and reducing the possiblity of relapse. I think its pretty safe to assume that diet and reduced exposure ( to all the stuff you mentioned) help to prevent relapse and keep you in better shape to handle it if you do. My 'health' has kept me alive through some terrible disease and drug episodes. The natural guys are great at this.

There are still people on the natural side that say they can treat wg. This makes me angry , as you can tell. So far there is no evidence that I know of that wg can be treated by natural means. Philisophically might that not suggest an unnatural cause? I dunno.

Our unnatural diet and toxins is responsible for a very high percentage of the diseases we westerners suffer from , so its something I think about.

I'm not trying to be arguementative but show a flip side (flip should sound funny, but I come off sounding kind of angry huh? ha)

As Al points out this illness is not to be trifled with.

Dryhill please refrain from saying things that are true about our politics. We are in denial right now and don't want to be disturbed.

[Al]

Which came first , the sicken or the Weg?....

Good points, Kirk. I would just add that the microbe theory and the toxin theory are not mutually exclusive. Indeed, most researchers would say, I am sure, that complex diseases are always a combination of genetics, personal history and environmental context, and luck. And keep in mind that they can be interactive. For instance, it is well known that certain viruses, called retro-viruses, can make changes in a cell's DNA--in its genetic code. Also not that, from a medical point of view, both microbes and toxins are considered environmental factors. In any case, I am sympathetic with the industrial chemical issue: As i have noted before, my father was a factory cabinet-maker before OSHA was around. He died at age 56 from bladder cancer. Still, I believe, for reasons given earlier, that, in a direct sense, microbes are the most likely culprits as to establishment of the immune response in WG (distinguished from re-introduction of the response in later flares). But in a real sense, it hardly matters, since those three factors--genetics, environment, and luck--are so highly interactive.

Al

[vdub]

she was interested that we had a map showing where we are located and she said that was the sort of research that needed to be done to confirm or rule out environmental causes

Speaking of which, I should give the map another kick WegMap
New folks might want to add their pin....