no appetite

[vdub]

I would never want to denegrate the entire profession, but when I see a doctor who prescribes something and, oh by the way, also happens to sell the product, then I'm very, very leary of the motive.

I think my acid test for a reputable anything would be "do they have a profit motive for the solution they recommend". If a naturopath prescribes a certain set or supplements or vitamins and then tries to sell you those supplements at an outlandish markup, then I would walk away. If, on the other hand, the person prescribed a set of supplements and simply told you to go to GNC or locate the best price on the internet, then that's a totally different story.

[Sangye]

I have started loosing weight, but not sure why. Dropped 15 lbs during the last couple weeks. I do have it to loose tho. No appetite. Not even for beer -- now THAT is weird!

NOT GOOD. Please make sure your doctors know about this, vdub.

[Sangye]

Nothing against the naturopath proffession, but I think a certified dietian at most all hospitals would be a better choice. The dietians at the hospitals have no stake in selling herbal supplements or vitamins. And, personally, I believe some herbal supplements have a potential to interact with mainstream drugs that we could be on, however, very few people would think to mention to their doc that they are taking supplements. I just think it's dangerous, so I tend to stay very mainstream. But that's just my humble opinion. Others may disagree.

Dieticians don't have nearly the training that holistic physicians do. And the American Dietetic Association is hardly free of influence or controversy.

Holistic doctors are well-trained in which nutrients and/or herbs interact with drugs. Naturopathic physicians are even trained and licensed in prescribing drugs, so they are an excellent choice.

The AMA has done quite a sales job convincing people that MDs are the safe choice for anything concerning the body. Never mind that tens of thousands of people die every year from medical errors and that "safety-tested" drugs are often removed from the market after damaging or killing thousands of people. If holistic doctors were killing or maiming people at anywhere near the same rates we'd be eliminated.

[Sangye]

I would never want to denegrate the entire profession, but when I see a doctor who prescribes something and, oh by the way, also happens to sell the product, then I'm very, very leary of the motive.

I think my acid test for a reputable anything would be "do they have a profit motive for the solution they recommend". If a naturopath prescribes a certain set or supplements or vitamins and then tries to sell you those supplements at an outlandish markup, then I would walk away. If, on the other hand, the person prescribed a set of supplements and simply told you to go to GNC or locate the best price on the internet, then that's a totally different story.

Vdub, you do realize that MDs are bombarded with incentives to prescribe drugs, right? I don't mean free office pens and post-it notes. There are unbelievable incentives, like free cruises, vacations to Hawaii, stays at pricey hotels, and so many more things you would never believe. I personally know this to be true.

Nutrition companies, on the other hand, don't give doctors perks like that. Maybe you get a free calendar each year.

[pberggren1]

That is for sure true Sangye. I know docs in my city that have gone on vacations like this. One even got a nice new BMW.

[Sangye]

They even pay for the MD's spouse to go along-- airfare, everything. It's obscene.

And MDs are also making BIG money off of all those drugs they prescribe. Many actually own stock in the drug company-- exposed by the media in recent years. How many office visits are to monitor the drugs they pushed on people or deal with the side effects? Lots.

[Al]

I would never want to denegrate the entire profession, but when I see a doctor who prescribes something and, oh by the way, also happens to sell the product, then I'm very, very leary of the motive.

I think my acid test for a reputable anything would be "do they have a profit motive for the solution they recommend". If a naturopath prescribes a certain set or supplements or vitamins and then tries to sell you those supplements at an outlandish markup, then I would walk away. If, on the other hand, the person prescribed a set of supplements and simply told you to go to GNC or locate the best price on the internet, then that's a totally different story.

Several points, here. 1) I am discussing nutrition, as in dietary intake. Unless my ND has major holdings in my usual grocery stores, he is making nothing off this relationship with me. 2) The few supplements I do buy from him (fish oil, the prescribed multi-vitamins and such) I would get from somewhere anyway; these will be fresher than from most vendors. 3) Even with supplementing his income, as it were, with a few sales of vitamins, my NO make a fraction of the income of my other docs. He told me, and I believe him, that he makes more from book sales (he writes mystery novels; the protagonist is, naturally, a naturopath). And yet, vdub, you are correct: 4) On some level, it is always about the money. Suivez de l'argent. Sometimes, this can be very direct: MDs regularly consult (for a fee) to pharmaceutical companies; academic doctors are required to bring in massive amounts of grant money to their institutions; golf, dinners, paid trips to conferences--it's all there. Sometimes it is less direct: clinics expect their doctors to use their labs and facilities, and use them regularly--and to refer patients to in-house colleagues when possible. There was a famous New Yorker story by Atul Gawande about wide differences in medical costs. Turns out that the nation's most expensive care is in parts of Texas, where the doctors themselves own the clinics, labs, and testing facilities. Of course, this should not be either surprising or shocking in itself. It doesn't matter if you are a fire fighter, a vulture capitalist, a mafia don, or an Indian chief; baby always needs a new pair of shoes. This is called "The Economy", and it makes the world go around. Well. So long as there is plenty of sunlight, food, oil, shelter, and other resources (and they are more or less equally available to all--including non-human life), no harm done. A rising tide lifts all boats. don't you know. (True, some boats tend to rise higher than others, but still....) So...what happens in a falling tide? Some boats still rise, but most do not--a real problem when we are talking about the economy. and about that critical part ot the economy we call "health care". Does this mean we must avoid those who rake off the big bucks in health care? No, because we also want the benefits of their presumed vast knowledge. Only, I suppose: Suivez de l'argent.

Al

[Al]

They even pay for the MD's spouse to go along-- airfare, everything. It's obscene.

And MDs are also making BIG money off of all those drugs they prescribe. Many actually own stock in the drug company-- exposed by the media in recent years. How many office visits are to monitor the drugs they pushed on people or deal with the side effects? Lots.

It is interesting to read the (now) required disclaimer at the end of various papers, where authors state any conflicts of interest. These come under the category of "fine print": most people do not read them. I find them fascinating....

Al

[Al]

....The AMA has done quite a sales job convincing people that MDs are the safe choice for anything concerning the body. Never mind that tens of thousands of people die every year from medical errors and that "safety-tested" drugs are often removed from the market after damaging or killing thousands of people. If holistic doctors were killing or maiming people at anywhere near the same rates we'd be eliminated.

Paradigms shift. Dogmas are abandoned; previously mocked ideas elevated, with regular frequency. I do very much believe the virtues of scientific method. Only...scientific method is, itself, a moving target, and not fully understood or exercised by working scientists. Again, so much of the narrative has, understood or otherwise; hidden or otherwise, a profit motive.

Al

[Sangye]

It is interesting to read the (now) required disclaimer at the end of various papers, where authors state any conflicts of interest. These come under the category of "fine print": most people do not read them. I find them fascinating....

Al

Me too. I'm particularly interested in any disclaimers on papers published by Wegs docs about drug studies!