Kidney donors?

[JeanMarie]

I'm with Max --I'm going to take a hit on this, but I think some of us sorely need a basic ethics course.

[annekat]

I too see nothing wrong with voluntary donation by anyone, including prisoners, but would draw the line at any compulsory donation of organs by those condemned on death row. It is treating them like something less than human and denying them the right to make this decision on their own. They may have done something horrible to be on death row, but they still have rights to some autonomy as long as they are alive. (And let's not forget the people who have been wrongly put to death and their innocence proved later.)

[drz]

All the ethics committees I know about have the view that anyone confined against their will, prison, jail, psych hospital, can not be viewed as voluntary subjects for any research unless there are very stringent guidelines and over sight of the research project to ensure there is no apparent benefit for participation or penalty for not participating that might influence their decision to participate or not.

[sangell]

And "ethics committees that you know about" have the final word? Based on what, that they self define themselves as 'ethics committees'?

Let's be honest, there is no independent standard by which people can determine what is ethical. Personal preference and circumstance are at play in determining what is 'ethical' and what is not: witness the eternal controversy over abortion. In other times and places human sacrifice was not only condoned but practiced by the 'religious authorities' of a society. We view that as barbaric today but, if you believed that without it the rains would not come and there would be famime, toss the virgins into the volcano for the 'greater good'.

Organ donation by a prisoner should not be required but there is nothing wrong, to me, with rewarding it with a reduction in sentence. It is no different than giving prisoners time off for 'good behavior'. In fact, the very purpose of incarcerating criminals was not to punish them or 'protect society'. That used to be accomplished far more cheaply and effectively with floggings or hangings. Instead we built 'Penitentiaries' or Reformatories and established departments of Corrections because, at the time. it was considered more 'ethical' to lock a man up for 5 years than whip him for a day in the hope his confinement would allow him to reflect on his life and thus be 'rehabilitated'

If there is one thing we might all agree on it is that our present system has failed and it has failed because convicted criminals no longer have a path back to a decent life. Organ donation would be just one way for those imprisoned for serious crimes might earn their way out of prison.

[Alysia]

I'm with Max --I'm going to take a hit on this, but I think some of us sorely need a basic ethics course.

I am with you JeanMarie and with Max.

[gilders]

Although I have no problem with prisoners donating organs without gaining a reward, if more people donated we wouldn't even need to consider or discuss various scenarios and what is/isn't ethical! Perhaps that is the truly unethical situation.

I have read a report for English prison systems and living donors. In brief it lists logistical reasons, rather than ethical reasons for the very few organ donations from prisoners. Such as security in the hospital (to prevent escape) and follow up treatment after the procedure.

I am not sure if I agree with every point Sangell makes, but "It is no different than giving prisoners time off for 'good behavior'" is a valid point. Considering 'good behaviour' in prison is more akin to 'regular behaviour' out side of prison (i.e. you haven't attacked anybody) and prisoners get rewarded for that, then genuine good behaviour, such as donating a kidney, warrants more of a reward than 'good behaviour'.

As for prisoners gaining a reward I'm undecided. I have tried to imagine a prisoner who has committed the worst crime, which for me would be the murder of a loved one. Would I prefer the prisoner to fulfil his full sentence with no privileges and to have lost my loved one. Or would I prefer my loved one's death to have had a huge benefit (possibly life saving) to someone, at the expense of the prisoner getting some privileges?
I guess it would depend on what the privilege would be and what the original crime was.
If my son had been stabbed in both kidneys and he had the opportunity to receive a kidney from someone locked up for avoiding paying tax and his privilege was an extra hour of free time (e.g. playing pool, watching tv) rather than been locked in his cell, then I wouldn't deny my son a life saving/changing operation.

In my opinion, there is not a simple yes/no answer to if prisoners should be allowed to donate organs - there is too many variables. But I do see situations where it should be allowed, but NEVER forced, no matter hoe bad the original crime was.

[Titus3:2]

Sangell,I am very sorry that you are in this terrible situation of needing a Kidney transplant.The numbers you have given in your opening thread for the odds of getting a kidney transplant are very sobering.I know this would be giving me a wide range of emotions if it were me.Will kidney dialysis help you.At age 64 which I believe you are,maybe you don't have any family members to donate a kidney to you.I will pray for you like many others on this forum.The idea of using a prisoner as a donor,other than the organ being donated to their own family member is much too complex for me to even consider.Good luck to you.Keith.

[annekat]

Sangell,I am very sorry that you are in this terrible situation of needing a Kidney transplant.The numbers you have given in your opening thread for the odds of getting a kidney transplant are very sobering.I know this would be giving me a wide range of emotions if it were me.Will kidney dialysis help you.At age 58 which I believe you are,maybe you don't have any family members to donate a kidney to you.I will pray for you like many others on this forum.The idea of using a prisoner as a donor,other than a family member is much too complex for me to even consider.Good luck to you.Keith.

I agree with this point of view, that the person in need of a transplant should be whom we are most concerned about here. I'm not under the impression that all family members would be suitable donors, though psychologically, that would be the most comfortable and least stressful situation. The one person I know who got a kidney transplant (not a weggie) was apparently unable to find a compatible one, or a willing donor, until a close non-related co-worker got tested and was found to be a match, and donated. I'm not sure if the issue is blood type, or what. I need to be educated. But 15 years later, that kidney is still going strong. I don't blame Sangell for trying to think of whatever ethical resources might exist for finding a new kidney. I would agree the prisoner idea would not be at the top of anyone's list, but if it's a matter of life and death, it might seem less of a negative. I pray that you find a good match, Sangell, and one that involves as little stress and complication as possible.

[gilders]

Average life expectancy for a 55 year old American is 26 years
Average life expectancy for a 55 year old American on dialysis is only 5 years
Average life expectancy for a 55 year old American with kidney transplant 15 years.

Not only is dialysis a massive change in lifestyle which ranges from 3 days/week for a few hours to EVERY day a few times a day of treatment, dependant on which type of dialysis, but it doesn't prolong life that much.

The mean average life expectancy for an American on dialysis is LESS THAN 3 years. This is due to many elderly who survive for a very short period on dialysis.

If sangell was given the option of taking a donor kidney from a prisoner so that he could expect to live around 15 years in "relative" good health, or the option of being tied to a machine for his remaining few (5) years on earth, I would not have any ill feelings for him if he chose to accept a donor from a prisoner.

I do wonder if the lack of people donating kidneys is due to the idea that the patient can go on dialysis, without the potential donor realising that dialysis isn't usually a permanent solution and just a bit of an inconvenience.

Sangell, I'm still not with you on forcing deathrow inmates to donate, but can understand why you feel that way. I truly hope you get a transplant. Have you heard of pooling? If you have a friend or family member willing to donate, but aren't a match, your donor can offer there kidney to someone who has a match. All transplants are done at the same time and are swapped around. This greatly increases chances of a match. My wife has offered to do this for me. I am not in a good position asI have had many blood transfusions which means I have built up a large "database" of antibodies. Therefore a tissue match that my body won't fight against is going to be hard to find.

[Alysia]

When my beautiful Phil was is the hospital in his last months on earth, we had few meetings with the transplant team, discussing the possibility of lung transplant. When Phil understood that the donor might be someone who's brain is considered to be "dead" and then they unplug the donor, Phil said that he prefer to die and not to be the one that for him, someone else was killed. Brain death is not death. There are many cases of recovery. Unplugging patient is killing him.
I cried like hell when Phil said so. Not because I didnt agree with him, but because I understood, accepted, and knew, in pure conscience, that Phil was right. I cried like hell because I understood that my sweetie was dying with not much chance to heal him. As much as I miss him, as much as I want him to live and to be with me, I wouldnt want him to be responsible or participent in someone else's death. I think the same about myself.

All people are equal. No one's life should be prefered over another one's life. No matter if it is a prisoner or a saint. We are not allowed to take other people's life. Unless it is a war and then one has no choice but to defend himself.

I am always shocked from the fact that you, poor americans, have death sentence, which in itself seems unethical to me. The only time that there was death sentence in Israel, was for Eichman, the Nazi who was responsible for the death of millions jewish in aushweitz.

Hang in there Sangell. They are working on 3 dimensional printed kidney or something like that.