Guilt

[Alysia]

Hi,
This is an issue I wanted to write about long ago… I believe that guilt has strong correlation with wg.
I don't need much to feel guilty. My "receptors" are very sensitive to "catch" it…
All my life I am guilt-ridden. Since infancy. I am working very hard to take care of a lot of people, sometimes prob to calm down my endless guilty feelings.
My wg was smoldering couple of years before I knew about it, but the trigger to the acute onset who almost killed me, was unbearable guilt that I felt considering my relationship with one of my best friends. She wanted me to give her something that was mine and I refused. Other friends of us told me I was right in my refusal, but that friend never forgave me since then. No matter how hard I was trying to please her, she never forgave me, and she stopped being my friend. I needed her forgiveness but she didn’t let it to me. so my guilty feeling were accumulating more and more, on the basis of my ancient guilt, until I became very sick.
I feel and think that there is strong connection between wg and guilt. Both are "eating" me from inside. When you feel guilty, then you are looking how to make atonement, and many times it takes the form of suffering, soul and body. It is as if wg was my punishment for my bad deed. I know that I didn’t do anything so bad to deserve it, but feelings are not rational. They have their own power.
It is an intimate area, the area of guilty feeling. And also an area of loneliness. Now a bit less, after I told you.
Thanks for listening.

[mishb]

Alysia, I don't think it is guilt that you were feeling and what made you sick.

There is no guilt in not giving someone something of yours......please don't think that you should feel guilty about that.

I think it was stress not guilt.
You were very worried about the reaction of your friend......worry and stress go hand in hand.
You felt bad at your friends reaction. You also had a right to feel sad and anxious.......but not guilty.

Your friendship with her, I have no doubt, was second to none. She was the one who decided not to continue with your friendship.
It is her that has lost out in this relationship, not you. She can no longer have Alysia in her life ........and that is her loss - not your guilt.

Big hugs to you - our friend :hug2::hug1::hug3:

[pberggren1]

Hun, I think you are not telling us everything here. I see to many blanks not filled. What did your friend want?

[gilders]

I think Michelle is correct. I know I've had relapses that have started during periods of stress (well more stress than usual).

As for your "punishment for your bad deed". I can see no bad deed. Obviously we don't know the full story, but I still can't think of a scenario which leads to you doing a bad deed.

You always send caring, heartfelt replies to posts and send personal messages. I'm really struggling to see how you could have anything to feel so guilty about.

[Alysia]

Hun, I think you are not telling us everything here. I see to many blanks not filled. What did your friend want?

Phil, thanks for asking. this is what she wanted: we both working as psychologists. I was just openning my private office in my city. she already had her private office in her city, but hers was not very succesful, prob due to the population in her city. so she wanted to join my office. she wanted that we will share it together (in my city there is more population). she wanted to use it in some of days of the week. I refused because it meant that she will take some of the potential patients that I can have. I didnt want that competition. besides, I wanted my office to be my place only. I didnt want to share it with anyone. this can be considered not being friendly to her.

Thank you, Michelle and Pete, from the bottom of my heart, for your kind and heart-warming words. your words to me, are like an ointment to an aching wound.
there is a difference between "being guilty" and between "feeling guilty". I might not be guilty, but have guilty feelings which are not a rational feelings. I dont think that I was guilty, but I had horrible guilt feelings. and these feelings were "eating" me from inside. sure it is also the stress and sadness and anxiety. the fact that she never forgave me made me feel even more guilty-feelings.
thanks for your friendship. you are very generous and understanding. I love you.
I still think that guilty-feelings, specific, made me sick.

[annekat]

Thanks for sharing this story, Alysia. I think you were right to stand up for yourself and keep your office as your own, the way you wanted it. Your friend was not wrong to ask, but was wrong not to be able to accept your answer. I can understand your feelings that you could have allowed her to join your office and then would not have lost her friendship. But I think she was not a real friend by not respecting your feelings and your right to determine the nature of your office and your practice. To quit being your friend for that shows a lack of maturity. I agree with Michelle that it is more stress than guilt, though I also understand feeling guilty vs. being guilty. I think we all do it, when we make choices in our own favor and don't give in to everything other people want. But other people are selfish to try to pressure us into things that make us uncomfortable. Just think how you'd feel if you had let her share your office and it had created even more stress in your life. Think how selfish she is for causing this stress for you when she knows what a sweet and caring person you are. Yes, I can see this being part of what triggered your Wegs; of course, we will probably never know for sure. I'm glad that writing about it makes you feel a little better. Reading it helps me, too.... I will certainly think of you if I find myself part of a similar situation.

[Wegetarian]

I'm sure it must have been a stressful situation, but it she would end your friendship for you keeping your business as your own then I think there would likely have been a lot more of uncomfortable and stressful situations if you would have allowed her in your business.

Sounds unfortunate, but I wouldn't feel bad about it. Certainly you should make the best decissions on how to run your own business and your friends should respect your decisions.

[Alysia]

thank you, from the bottom of my heart, Anne and Wedgi, for your understanding and support. it does help to share it. thanks for being here with me :love:

[pberggren1]

I understand too hun. I have much guilt from the past.....

[Alysia]

I understand too hun. I have much guilt from the past.....

Thanks Phil. I know you understand :hug1:

[annekat]

Guilt seems to be somewhat built in to the human condition, and unfortunately, we tend to either turn it inward on ourselves or outward against other people. Alysia, your friend may feel guilty for asking to share your space and guilty for stopping the friendship. But she cannot face that guilt so she continues on rejecting you as a friend even though she knows it hurts you. That will not be good for her own welfare in the long run, either.

[Alysia]

Guilt seems to be somewhat built in to the human condition, and unfortunately, we tend to either turn it inward on ourselves or outward against other people. Alysia, your friend may feel guilty for asking to share your space and guilty for stopping the friendship. But she cannot face that guilt so she continues on rejecting you as a friend even though she knows it hurts you. That will not be good for her own welfare in the long run, either.

thanks Anne. not everybody is prone to feel guilty. it is already more then 5 years since that case. it was before my acute onset of WG, in 2008. my ex-friend has no guilt feelings. she still blame me, I am the "bad" if you ask her. and there were times which I believed it too. (that I am the "bad" in that case).
anyway, beyond that case, I think that guilt is connected to wg: it is something that is attacking from inside, like in wg, in which the immun-system is attacking from inside.
and I also think that it is more specific then stress in general. maybe I am searching to explain how I became so sick and what precipitate it...

[annekat]

Alysia, you may well be right that guilt is a separate thing from overall stress and has its own special way of being destructive. I also understand your feeling that your friend feels no guilt and just turns it around to make you the bad person. But I also suspect that people who behave that way and show no remorse for their actions have deeper problems of insecurity and inability to admit any wrongdoing on their part, and probably if they do feel guilt, it never shows and they never deal with it. She doesn't really sound like someone who should be a psychologist, let alone be in your office!

In any case, I think you are perfectly justified in thinking that guilt triggered your Wegs. Since we don't know for sure what causes it, it makes as much sense as anything, really.

[Wegetarian]

I don't feel guilty at all, but still I have wegs :huh:

[Rose]

I have been told that for a person to be struck by an A1 disease they are likely to be 1) under great emotional or physical stress, 2)recent exposure to an infectious agent and 3) have a genetic predisposition. (all happening concurrently) This was certainly the case with me even the genetic predisposition as one of my sisters was diagnosed with RA at age 38 and my oldest sister contracted Pulmonary Artery Hypertension in her mid sixties which killed her within 2 years. Although not considered an A1 disease it is a connective tissue disease and so has some relationship. I am from a big family (the others are very healthy) and have lots of cousins etc....though I am not aware of any of them being diagnosed with an A1 diseases.

Surely emotional stress is anything that occupies our thoughts in a negative way as in sadness, jealousy, worry, anxiety, feelings of inferiority, guilt and many more. Emotional stress is stress regardless of what causes it. Ever noticed how people with a very happy disposition and take life with all its ups and downs in their stride, seem rarely to be ill. I think emotional stress wreaks havoc in the body and believe strongly in psychoimmunology which states that our thoughts and emotions affect our immune system and so cause physical illness.

Anyway that is my experience. I know other will say that they were happy, healthy, having a wonderful carefree life when WG struck. Will we ever know?

Rose

[Alysia]

I know other will say that they were happy, healthy, having a wonderful carefree life when WG struck. Will we ever know?

Rose

thanks for your input Rose. it is a good question. I can tell that my guilty feelings made me sick at that time, but I can also tell that for sure WG was smoldering for couple of years before the acute relapse: coughing, sinus issues, ears, throat, joints and colon, but in a less intensity.

[D.B.]

alysia, a wise friend once told me (while i was depressed and refusing to get out of bed) that you cant make sense of what is not rational. maybe by writing about your guilt you will be able to acknowledge it and move along. i think you are beautiful person.

[Debbie C]

Alysia, I don't believe at all that feeling guilty made you sick. I think you did the right thing for yourself and your so-called friend saw an opportunity to make things better for herself by joining you in your office and could not get over it when you said no. She is probably jealous of you, how much you have accomplished, what a good person you are ( we all love you here ) and I'm sure you have alot of people that love you there,some you probably don't even know about ( like all the patients you help every day ) I agree that her being there might have caused you more stress since you wanted it to be your office and you deserved it , you worked hard for it...so in the long run that may have gotten you sicker. The stress over the situation may have made things a little worse but I don't believe that was the cause for it. Look at all the people in the world that are guilty of something and not everyone gets AI from it. You need to let it go,she lost a good friend and she should be sick from guilt.

[marta]

Hey Alysia,

I'm reading this and it's making things tweak because not that long ago I went and saw this gentleman do a talk for an MS fundraiser. As I listened to him I found many of the points he makes ring very true for me and after reading this I think they'll ring true for you too. I know how you feel with the internal strife, I'm pretty sure we all do to some degree, but I think that guilt is one of those feelings that has a higher chance of being taken under our control with just a perspective change. I think that we are more susceptible to feel that guilt and self doubt when we're under stress, but it also wreaks havoc with our hormones, and guts, and the immune system itself. Dr. Mate's theory that it's people who are always trying to please that are more susceptible to chronic illness because we can't say no and overtax ourselves emotionally, physically, physiologically. It's a very interesting theory and I'm sure many of us would be sitting there nodding in agreement point after point.

The book: When the Body Says No | Dr. Gabor Maté (http://drgabormate.com/book/when-the-body-says-no/)

Apparently he has a retreat. I only learned that a couple of days ago when I contacted the MS rep in our area (who brought him in for the talk) and she was heading out to Mexico to his retreat.

I hope that knowing that stress is a known trigger for flares, it's quite possible that the stress of the situation that your friend put you through was enough to trigger the onset. It is your kind personality that makes you want to keep giving to everyone that is also what's making you feel guilty and taking it all on yourself. You're a kind, wonderful, woman and never let anyone take advantage of your goodness.

Put your arms up in a warrior type pose (or like you came through first on a marathon) and stay that way for two minutes, and you'll feel a difference in a week of doing it. I promise. I saw it on Tedtalks.

Big hugs.

[Alysia]

alysia, a wise friend once told me (while i was depressed and refusing to get out of bed) that you cant make sense of what is not rational. maybe by writing about your guilt you will be able to acknowledge it and move along. i think you are beautiful person.

Thank you so much, Dina, for your kind words. it is true that writing it here helps me. reading what you are all writing to me makes me being tearful and thankful.

[Alysia]

Alysia, I don't believe at all that feeling guilty made you sick.


thank you Debra, for your heart-warming words. I love you all here too :love:
I am blessed to be a member in this awesome forum.
I still think that feeling guilty per se makes me sick, among more variable.
but sure it can't hold to anyone. it is me.

[Alysia]

Dr. Mate's theory that it's people who are always trying to please that are more susceptible to chronic illness because we can't say no and overtax ourselves emotionally, physically, physiologically. It's a very interesting theory and I'm sure many of us would be sitting there nodding in agreement point after point.

The book: When the Body Says No | Dr. Gabor Maté (http://drgabormate.com/book/when-the-body-says-no/)


Put your arms up in a warrior type pose (or like you came through first on a marathon) and stay that way for two minutes, and you'll feel a difference in a week of doing it. I promise. I saw it on Tedtalks.

Big hugs.

Hi marta,
wow, thanks for the link and the theory :thumbsup: it sounds very "familiar" so to say. I do find it hard to say "no".
thanks for the warrior position and for the hugs.
you should write more here :thumbup:

[annekat]

Alysia, I figure that feeling guilty causes stress, and stress makes you sick. So indirectly, we can say that guilt makes you sick. I figure for each of us, there can be more than one thing that triggered our Wegs. Stress would be a big one, including stress from feeling guilty, plus there could have been some things you were exposed to that helped trigger it.

[annekat]

Hi marta,
wow, thanks for the link and the theory :thumbsup: it sounds very "familiar" so to say. I do find it hard to say "no".
thanks for the warrior position and for the hugs.
you should write more here :thumbup: That does look like a very good book, doesn't it? I, too, have the problem of having trouble saying no, or if I do, feeling guilty.

[Dirty Don]

I, too, have the problem of having trouble saying no, or if I do, feeling guilty.

Too old for that stuff...I say no and mean it, and guilt is not a part of me anymore! The ONLY person who can do those 2 things to me effectively anymore is my daughter, forever my little girl! Sighs.....rrrreeeeaacchhhiiinnnnng for coffee....

[annekat]

Too old for that stuff...I say no and mean it, and guilt is not a part of me anymore! The ONLY person who can do those 2 things to me effectively anymore is my daughter, forever my little girl! Sighs.....rrrreeeeaacchhhiiinnnnng for coffee....
I'm getting better in this department, Don. Along with being more assertive, though, comes a bit of crabbiness sometimes. Coffee can help make me less crabby!

[pberggren1]

I'll buy a Timmie's double double for everyone......:thumbsup:

[Debbie C]

That's funny Don...:lol: I'm getting to the point where I don't care what people think..like one of those old ladies that just tells it like it is. But like you my family can get to me.

[vdub]

I am with Don. Too old for guilt trips. Let here know she's out of here and forget about her. Not your problem -- totally her issue.

Like Don, my daughter is the only one who can send me on a guilt trip. Love my little daughter -- note the avatar. 62 days left.

[Alysia]

Too old for that stuff...I say no and mean it, and guilt is not a part of me anymore! The ONLY person who can do those 2 things to me effectively anymore is my daughter, forever my little girl! Sighs.....rrrreeeeaacchhhiiinnnnng for coffee....

Hi Don and Vdub too,
It is always makes me feel warm-hearted to see the devotion of a father to his daughter :thumbup:
my dad is just like that. he is doing everything he can for me. but I am trying not to "use" him. I love him too much.

[Alysia]

I'll buy a Timmie's double double for everyone......:thumbsup:

thanks Phil :thumbsup: no sugar please.

[Alysia]

Let here know she's out of here and forget about her. Not your problem -- totally her issue.


thanks vdub :thumbup: your words are comforting.

[Pete]

Like Don, my daughter is the only one who can send me on a guilt trip. Love my little daughter -- note the avatar. 62 days left.

Hoping that star stays blue!!!

[LisaT]

thanks Anne. not everybody is prone to feel guilty. it is already more then 5 years since that case. it was before my acute onset of WG, in 2008. my ex-friend has no guilt feelings. she still blame me, I am the "bad" if you ask her. and there were times which I believed it too. (that I am the "bad" in that case).
anyway, beyond that case, I think that guilt is connected to wg: it is something that is attacking from inside, like in wg, in which the immun-system is attacking from inside.
and I also think that it is more specific then stress in general. maybe I am searching to explain how I became so sick and what precipitate it...

I think the guilt you felt is likely part of what triggered your immune system (and mine--I too have this tendency) but it can be different triggers or feelings for different people. (Eg. Anger, fear, etc. could have a similar effect). I also think environmental factors can play a role so there's a unique combination of factors for everyone. But back to so-called friends. I almost never end friendships. It usually takes time for me to get close to people (not on this forum), but once they're my close friend it's pretty much for life. However, I have had two close friendships end in the past. I've never gotten over either (they were 20 and 12 years ago) and for a long time struggled to stop myself from obsessing over the details, what was said and done by whom. I've actually come to the conclusion that they were just not good people for me to be friends with in the first place, which I knew intuitively with both almost instantly and for inexplicable reasons ignored, and it would not have worked in the long run even if I'd done things differently. Some people are just selfish and that doesn't mix well with someone who is kind and generous and giving of herself as you are. Eventually they will take enough from you to reach even your almost limitless limit... And they're not used to you saying no. I think that's what happened with you and your friend. Her inability to understand and allow you to run your business by yourself and for yourself shows she wasn't a true friend. True friends love you for who you are, not what you can do or sacrifice for them. I understand why it would be hard to let go of your feelings of guilt, only because they're not rational and those of us who feel guilty are easily manipulated by others into feeling that way. But from the outside looking in, you so clearly made the right decision, and had you shared your office with her the friendship would have ended eventually, probably in a bigger blaze of glory and possibly destroying or affecting your practice at the same time. I'm glad you listened to your intuition but sorry you had to feel so bad that it contributed to or caused your illness. :hug2::hug2::hug2:

[LisaT]

Hi marta,
wow, thanks for the link and the theory :thumbsup: it sounds very "familiar" so to say. I do find it hard to say "no".
thanks for the warrior position and for the hugs.
you should write more here :thumbup:

That theory makes total sense. I will have to read that book. I can't remember the name if it but he wrote a good parenting book too.

[Alysia]

thanks Lisa. you are a true friend. :love: :hug1:

[Alysia]

my conclusions so far.... sorry for being "aggresive"..... :blushing:

https://scontent-b-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/t1.0-9/10313546_635802276499137_1610550421079393426_n.jpg

[windchime]

my conclusions so far.... sorry for being "aggresive"..... :blushing:

https://scontent-b-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/t1.0-9/10313546_635802276499137_1610550421079393426_n.jpg

You were aggressive? Looking around trying to see it. Love you as you are Alysia. Don't change.

[Alysia]

You were aggressive? Looking around trying to see it. Love you as you are Alysia. Don't change.

thanks Cindy :biggrin1: the "aggresiveness" is by throwing the freezed lemons... although on someone who deserve it :unsure: :blushing:

[LisaT]

Maybe that person IS a lemon (this is a saying in English about cars; a car that isn't good or keeps breaking down is referred to as a lemon...) :w00t:

[windchime]

my conclusions so far.... sorry for being "aggresive"..... :blushing:

https://scontent-b-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/t1.0-9/10313546_635802276499137_1610550421079393426_n.jpg

Alysia that wasn't aggressive just good old p***ed off. It's a good, safe outlet for all the stress. :biggrin1:

[Alysia]

Maybe that person IS a lemon (this is a saying in English about cars; a car that isn't good or keeps breaking down is referred to as a lemon...) :w00t:

:lol: thanks Lisa and Cindy :love:

[Alysia]

I am feeling better today so I can try some more "deals".... :

https://s-media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/originals/d0/2a/4d/d02a4d6a6f49f9822b2c403981a9240c.jpg